It's a hard issue to sort out, really... how far society should go in allowing religious groups the freedom to act out their beliefs- no matter what those beliefs are? It raises the question- who should have the final say when beliefs and rules clash? Should Tescos be blamed for creating a rule that hoods are not allowed in store? It's their store after all (legally, their space), so who's to say that their 'beliefs' shouldn't be respected as well?

As an aside, the Jedi guy says it's part of his religious freedom to wear a hood, yet he obviously has the opposite freedom of being able to take his hood off in public (edit: actually, according to the Jedi handbook, he apparently doesn't). People of other faiths don't have the luxury of that freedom, so I think in this case he was perhaps being a little non-understanding, or not fair by invoking these other faiths to make his point about discrimination. He's operating under a different set of rules to people he's comparing himself with. Or is he really making a point that religious people should be able to do vaguely whatever they want according to their religion and their beliefs, simply because they're religious beliefs? That beliefs (religious) should trump rules (secular), every time?

Going back to my main point, which is- where should society (as a larger entity that includes all religions) draw the line as it were?

An article in yesterdays paper got me thinking..

http://www.theage.com.au/natio ... -right-20090926-g76u.html

Here's a case where the freedoms of certain religious groups are being upheld by law, It seems a win for religious groups, but I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with the governments decision here. It seems pretty complex to me actually, I'm not a lawyer or an ethicist or a religious expert so I don't have anything profound to say on it but it is interesting (this Jedi thing's been bugging me the last couple of days), so I'll put it out there anyway.



edit: here's the Jedi Church's account of what happened in Tescos.

http://web.me.com/danxms3/Chur ... ediism/Tesco_Release.html

He is claiming that:

Quote :

His religion requires him to wear his hood up and cover his head in large public areas of high volume of audience. Tesco staff approached him and asked him to remove his hood and so he refused and explained its part of his religion.

According to the Jedi Handbook,

Quote :

As a Jedi no matter at what level we agree that all Jedi need the basic Jedi Robes in brown, This is for the traditional dress you will wear for ceremonies / conventions that you may be invited to. It is agreed that the dress code should be black trousers a black t-shirt with the church logo on (available from our web site), black jumper and a black zip up hooded jacket or the colour of the level you are on during your training NOTE: this can be any hood as long as it is a hooded garment. All Jedi must ware a hood up in any public place of a large audience; this shows symbolism of your faith.
These will be used in training and in sessions also its our modern way of the look of our “Neo-Jedi”.

His home page is over at
http://churchofjediism.tk/

Last edited by Electrik Kar, Sun 27 Sep 2009, 23:20.

Here you go Glenn,

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=44139

I'm going to blame the Mp3 players here (:geezer and the effect they're having on a whole generation growing up with compressed music. Are most kids going to care about this 'war'? Probably not. It's only going to effect anyone who actually values high-fidelity sound over attention grabbing loudness, or quality over portability.

C'mon kids, surprise me!

Last edited by Electrik Kar, Sat 26 Sep 2009, 23:30.

I haven't heard of this before (maybe because I don't buy very much super modern/commercial music) but it does indeed sound like a problem. What is the reason for it again? Is it to sound louder next to another song played before/after it on the radio, or for kids who can't find the volume control on their iPods? Doesn't seem to make much sense to me- even on the compressed youtube videos the difference is as obvious as day and night, the normalised version sounds like total trash, how is that going to help sell the music?

edit:

Quote :

watch this, that guy explains the whys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvheO...eature=related

Alright, I see what's going on now.

Gosh :scared:illepall

Last edited by Electrik Kar, Sat 26 Sep 2009, 22:51.

Quote from GFresh :

Wolfgang Gartner - Fire Power

TUNE tbh

Nice!

Quote :

It reminds me of rFactor with much better visuals, and slightly improved physics and handling

The graphics are lovely.. really nice textures for the road and tracks, and the car interiors are excellent. I find the blurring effect to be a distraction, and the way the screen desaturates when you hit something. These things aren't needed, but I haven't looked at whether it's possible to turn off yet.

Not sure about the handling. Using the keys is next to impossible, with a G25 I'm faring better but I don't think I've got it set up properly yet- the first thing I had to do was decrease from 100% lock, which was totally unmanageable, 50% was better but perhaps still not ideal. The car feels O.K. but very underwhelming and coarse in contrast to nkPro which I've been running a lot lately. I can't compare to rFactor...

Looks like a fun game- the menus are a little crazy and over the top but that's to be expected in a game like this. I find it amusing that you are rewarded for driving like a reckless fool just as you would for smooth and consistent driving. Seems the game wants everyone to feel like they're driving champions, no matter how crazy or incompetent they are on the road. Again, I won't criticise too heavily here because it's obviously a design choice they've taken to appeal to a diverse audience.

Tons of cars, tons of tracks (can't say how close to realistic they are but who cares with a game like NFS?)- all looking high quality.

Thumbs up so far

Quote from Becky Rose :

Well the religion itself appears to completely lack the concept of guidance and replaces it with the concept that "you know what you should do". It shifts the emphasis away from the religion making decisions for you and onto the individual, which is quite a unique stand point as it lines up more with aetheism than it does with any existing religious doctrine, conceptually, the religion itself does not decide what is right or wrong, it simply teaches that there is a right and a wrong and you are capable of either, so you have a choice...

...Well it doesnt try to answer the question of how/why we are all here, which to me I consider to be the greatest flaw of the traditional religions:

That's much more in line with some of the Eastern religions, especially Taoism and Zen, which don't have any hard and fast rules about things and which downplay scripture and theoretical knowledge. As an example you can see that in the story of the disciple who approaches his master for guidance, and the master responds by kicking a ball or slapping the disciple across the face.

I think really, Jediism could be seen as an amalgamation of traditional Eastern religions and the dualism of Western spiritual alignment/salvation. It says there is a right and wrong, that those who align to the dark side are lost ("he is more machine now than man", "lost to the dark side is he"), but it also leaves it up to the individual to sort him/herself out.


PS, for fun...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2i764rMDfM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... T-BeE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... CrsH0&feature=related


edit: just came across some serious clarification about the Jedi religion from a true Jedi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... aGTcs&feature=related


edit 2:

another serious Jedi dude
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpGbpTGcnXc&NR=1

Last edited by Electrik Kar, Fri 25 Sep 2009, 22:14.

Glenn Branca - The World Upside Down

Quote :

As religions go, i'd rather have Jedi's running the show than Christians.

Yeah, maybe.

But Jediism still views the world in terms of good and evil, and those who practice it individually align with a light side, dark side, or somewhere in between. This is all innocent enough right now, but if ever it became a serious contender on the world religious stage (with serious money to play with), what would really prevent the true believers from acting out their favourite movie (which is at heart a war movie), for real?

That's the problem as far as I can see. The religion doesn't discriminate racially, you're free to come and go as you please, etc. Sounds O.k. But it's still based on a dualism that plays out as a war. With very big weapons.

Better to make fun of it now before it all gets out of hand

Last edited by Electrik Kar, Thu 24 Sep 2009, 17:30.

Quote :

For the worse...

Well, who knows really? We can't run history again without Christianity.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I do believe there was a man called Jesus, and he was probably a really nice bloke. I do believe he had followers, and they wrote what they saw (or, rather, what they thought they were seeing - blinded by belief perhaps?).

To 'believe' that Jesus could do 'miracles' is a much smaller step compared to believing that George Lucas made some films based on an actual reality (even if Jedis have parrallels with existing religious beliefs) because we KNOW it was a made up story. Do people follow the Matrix as a religion because of the religious stuff that went on, particularly the third film?

It doesn't bother me, as I think it's all a load of silliness

I have more respect for Christianity than something like Scientology or Jediism, probably because it's been around for a long time and has been a major shaping force in civilisation and the philosophical make up of human beings. That part of it is undeniable. Similarly, going to Turkey and seeing the Hagia Sophia in person is extremely affecting, I mean this building is absolutely impressive, you cannot deny the energy of it. I simply can't imagine what it would have been like to experience first hand as a believer during the height of the Byzantine empire!

Maybe, Jediism over a couple of thousand years will produce some interesting things, not in the least great wars in space fought with colourful lasers. But I'm not going to give any energy to it.

Last edited by Electrik Kar, Thu 24 Sep 2009, 16:16.

Quote from tristancliffe :

The laser scanning ensures the track is close to reality, but doesn't mean that it's an accurate recreation of the track surface.

While I think it's important to realise this, it's also worth making the point that 'the perfect is the enemy of the good', and that while laser scanning won't get us all the way to a perfect simulation of a real life track surface all by itself, it's still pretty darn good for what it can do. Track recreation seems an ideal application for this technology imo- used in conjunction with an awareness of the kinds of details that you've mentioned, I think you'd be able to get pretty close to an accurate reproduction. Not perfect, but certainly good enough, and certainly better than what we've seen go before it in home simulation.

But the guy who drives may have only driven one kind of car. If that's the case he can only talk about that one particular car and won't be able to compare with other cars.

Religion is like that for a lot of people. They are simply born into it and are made to follow it their entire lives. Continuing the metaphor, they are told that the car they're driving is the best one, while all other cars are crap (a pretty biased review in my opinion). Other people get to try out lots of different cars, but can't decide which one they like the best. Some people never buy a car their whole life because they don't want one. They're fine just walking. Or they don't like the pollution.

edit:

Quote :

Scientology is actually more believable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7EEOMbBIO8

Last edited by Electrik Kar, Wed 23 Sep 2009, 21:26.

Quote :

If Jediism is a religion then my love of cars is also a religion and also my use of computer TV and my games collection.

There are certain music albums which I'd personally consider to be of more spiritual value (to me) than various religious texts such as the Bible or the Bhagavad Gita. On the other hand, I know people who've said they weren't religious at all until they'd read the Bible and something inside them just switched on. People are strange.

At the end of the day you can't say who's right and who's wrong because experience triggers different things inside each of us. Maybe I'm being harsh on the Jedi guy, or maybe I'm not giving future religiously inclined Harry Potter fans a chance. To me these potentials are very silly and the last thing you want a religion to be is silly. Religion is supposed to be about profound things. I can get frustrated or annoyed (not too often really, it usually just washes over) because what I hear coming out of various religious/spiritual circles can sound like garbage to me... I don't count my own experience of the world as garbage. To me the world is a fairly profound place. I may agree with certain ideas contained in certain religions, even Jediism, but I'll never give my experience over to any religion. I can tolerate religion but at the same time I'm not very respectful of a lot of these institutions (edit: or certain aspects of them, or certain individuals who represent them). I'm am very respectful and value very much the ideals of freedom of expression and freedom of religion however, I'm not sure whether that's a contradiction on my part...

Last edited by Electrik Kar, Wed 23 Sep 2009, 20:22.

Quote :

Why is Scientology accepted as a religion? How is it different from the Jedi "religion" as described in the star wars books?

Well, both are religions. They share a similarity in that they are both very recent, modern manifestations. They differ in the various details of their beliefs, but both recognise an all powerful force which contains and maintains the material universe but isn't contained by it. In many ways both Scientology and Jediism are basically modern repackagings of older beliefs, Scientology apparently contains elements of Buddhism and Hinduism, Jediism seems to blend Taoism, Pantheism and a bunch of other stuff. There's nothing very much 'new' here. It's all pretty much spiritual business as usual.

Becky, you've made it quite clear in other threads on religion that you're not exactly interested in respecting various beliefs. You've been very consistent about it, actually very insistent. So this latest post I find a little odd or confusing coming from you. That's fine from me, but it's still curious.

Quote from Bob Smith :

Bob's post

Great post Bob. I agree.

The new track is setting a precedent in LFS. It's a real track and it's laser scanned. You can only assume at some point other tracks and cars will be added, and since Scavier are moving towards greater realism and detail then it's a safe bet that laser scanning will probably become the new standard for tracks inside LFS.

Concerning the price- laser scanning costs money. iRacing already charge per track prices which compare with or exceed the cost of S3. We don't know how many cars and tracks S3 will include but the more of them there are, the greater the value S3 will be. It's premature (and extremely immature) to start shouting about the cost of S3 since we don't have any idea what it's going to include.

Quote :

so figure out how long it takes for a whole race track, additional texturing and all lfs related thingys.

I would think that quite a bit of work is removed from Eric's side, including coming up with a fictional track idea. I'm unsure really what needs to happen once you have the basic scan completed but I can see Eric really enjoying this new approach to track creation. I remember reading an interview with him where he said that designing tracks was pretty difficult or not exactly his comfort zone. But with that out of the way he's able to concentrate on other elements- he's certainly produced a beautiful track here. No idea how long it may have taken.

I think he's got one of the best jobs in the world

Last edited by Electrik Kar, Wed 23 Sep 2009, 04:17.

Quote :

I'm with you on this one. I think its just as bad to believe what is written in the "bible" as to believe everything about Star Wars and such.

It doesn't mean you need to find the nearest movie and build a whole religion out of it. What's really to stop anyone from forming a Harry Potter religion where everyone wears dark round glasses and carries a cane that they think lets them do magic? Or A Jaws religion, or a Lethal Weapon religion? Well society says that nothing is really stopping anyone from these things- there's a basic religious tolerance and freedom of religion operating, which is actually a good thing. Want to form a cult? You can. You can make up the rules (Banana Sex Cult!!???) and people will follow you around like you are Jesus. You are now living a creative life infused with profound meaning and significance. Terrific.

I'm technically Church of England, which is Henry the 8th's made up religion. But really, why should I want to have anything to do with that? Why should we indulge all of this silliness? So some Jedi guy thinks he can wear a hood wherever he likes because it's his 'religion'. That's what he thinks. The people at Tescos have their own ideas about that. They're not intending to stamp out Jedism (religious intolerance this is not) it's obviously more of a security thing. The reason they don't extend the same rule across everyone is because they're aware that there's a significant section of society who sincerely believes that they're required to wear head covering in public in order to stay within the bounds of their chosen/imposed faiths. This Jedi guy cannot possibly be a sincere believer. He's just an attention seeker with a vague point to make about religious relativism who's feigning discrimination. His point is exactly what you're referring to, but it doesn't mean that he's not being silly!

My girlfriend says she was disappointed that no-one gave her any sugar (seker) this year.

What's Eid?

edit: ahhaa, it's ok- I looked it up. Haha, no I didn't participate this year. When I was in Turkey I tried fasting for a day or two. Was interesting. My girlfriends immediate family is much more communist than Muslim, so there was no strict laying down of the law.

Last edited by Electrik Kar, Tue 22 Sep 2009, 05:52.

Quote :

but i dont see the point of make fun of other ppl beliefs

That guy can't really believe he's a Jedi, and if he does he's in quite a bit of trouble. Whereas a great many people defined as Muslims and Christians etc, are actually firm believers that they are in fact, Muslims and Christians.

Quote from Byku :

They need to update the textures a little .

Why'd you say that? They're certainly been updated. Looks fine to me.

Quote :

It's nice this track was made utilizing laser scanning, which besides being much more accurate than eye measurement hopefully also sped up the track creation at least a bit.

It seems a small shame (don't want to give the impression I'm moaning) that the laser scanning was used on a track surface which seems to be only a few years old. But alteast the measurements should hold up fine, which is the main thing. I'm actually totally stoked about these latest developments. Been looking forward to seeing this level of detail in LFS and it seems like it's finally on the way.

Congratulations devs, your hard work and dedication is paying off. Have a great S3!

Laser scanning + new tire model... S3 here we come!